E76: Why Valuing Employees Beyond Titles Can Prevent Burnout and Revolutionize Work Culture with Melanie Gray

Burnout isn't just exhaustion—it's a nervous system crisis reshaping workplaces. Dr. Melanie Gray, host of Code Calm, reveals how valuing productivity over people fuels stress and anxiety. Discover how digital overstimulation, or "scrollomitis," impacts mental health and why redefining success is crucial. Learn to set boundaries, recognize burnout signs, and embrace self-care for lasting well-being. This episode offers insights for anyone facing workplace stress or social media discontent, aiming for a balanced, authentic life. Press play to start your journey toward calm, clarity, and resilience.

Connect with Melanie:

https://www.drmelaniegraytheconfidencecoach.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

What if burnout isn't caused by working too much, but by forgetting who you are outside of work? Today we're joined by an expert in trauma-informed leadership, burnout prevention, and workplace wellness. We dive into why so many people tie their identity to a job title, how social media fuels discontent with scrollomitis, and why organizations may have a nervous system problem more than a performance problem. Let's roll right in. Today we live in a world where burnout is at an all-time high and healthcare turnover is nearly 30% annually. Our guest is a nationally recognized expert in trauma-informed leadership, burnout prevention, and workplace wellness. She indicates organizations don't just have a performance problem, they have a nervous system problem. She's an author and also host the podcast CodeCom, Dr. Melanie Gray. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Thank you so much, Tony, for having me as your guest. I look forward to the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

No, I love it. So, Melanie, define work for us today.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Work in terms of being employed by someone else has become something that people not just do for money or income, it has in many instances become their entire life. We're seeing people find their entire definition of self by the title of their job, their career, and their income. And I believe that this has to change. That individuals, everyone should value themselves for who they are, not by their title, not by the number of people that they oversee. That's so I work, I believe you work to live, Tony. You don't live to work. And I feel that that is the mantra I'd like more people to have.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Melanie, right out of the gate, I love that. You just struck a nerve in my. So I love talking about in the show because I hate the question, what do you do? Right? Because that in itself, that answer right there, it becomes your identity, right? It's that thing that trades time for money. How do you recommend we start changing this conversation around work and working to live as you indicate?

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Well, it means we reach way back, Tony, in terms of how we even talk to our children. Think about it. How old were you when you someone first asked you, and Tony, being five years old, what do you want to be when you grow up? We have to stop this. Because then you have this little kid saying, Well, I'm gonna be a firefighter. And then they, so we think it's we chuckle at five, right? But when that same individual kid becomes 13, we're putting the pressure on them. Well, you know you have five more years until you're an adult. You're gonna have to know what you're going to do. And we just lay all this pressure on our kids, and then we're seeing our kids have all this anxiety. It's anxiety, nervous issues are on the uprise. And I think that it's just not a conversation we need to have that young, partially because it puts pressure on the kids, but also because things are changing so rapidly that some of the literature says the work that our gin, uh, what is it, we're in gin alpha now, the work that they're gonna do, we haven't even defined yet. We don't even have titles for that. So I think it's better to help people learn how to live and live with grace. Live maybe with less.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

So, Melanie, one of the things we like to say on the show is that success is not a matter of good luck, it's good skills. Walk us through, again, kind of building on what you're saying there, stripping away the title and kind of developing what is the skill so we can live today and not being so attached to our job title.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I think the skill is first being aware of who you are and being a w willing to step away from the expected. For example, no one expects someone who's a vice president to step away from that title and become a staff nurse. No one uh I have uh a PhD and in in in um education, and no one expects me to do anything less than be a professor or, you know, even be professor or some kind of you know, leader, have a higher leader position. And I think that we have to one be willing to redefine ourselves, be willing to really look at what we need to live peacefully, right? Do I need to take on debt? Do I need a bigger house? You can only put your butt on one toilet at a time, you can only sleep in one bed at a time, you can only put your legs in one pair of pants at a time, yet we spend a lifetime, Tony, of accumulating things. And the clincher is as you get older, you end up often being in one room that you didn't pick anyway. And everyone else is left to manage and do something with all your stuff.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

What a wake-up call there, Melanie. Thank you. I guess why do we start breaking down these expectations of, I like kind of you're kind of alluding to this idea of FOMO, right? Fear of missing out. I got to accumulate more crap in my life, and it's not gonna necessarily give me happiness. How do we step away from these expectations of I need more stuff, I need titles, I need things like that.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Well, I really believe, Tony, that a great part of that is just staying off of social media. Uh huh. In my on my website, I have coined this term scroll scrollomitis, that it's become a disease. Or people are scrolling morning, noon, and night, and then they're benchmarking their lives on the posts of strangers who don't pay their bills, don't really know them, who could be curating falsehoods, you know, fantasies of the life they want, not the life that they are living. So I think one, you have to start benchmarking from others and get your value centered on what do you personally value? And understand no one has to agree with you. There's this kind of mindset that if people don't agree, if I'm not getting enough likes on my thoughts, if no one's following me, that somehow my ideas and my and what I value can't be worth. Wow, that is an absolute untruth to me, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

So you touch on something that I'd love to explore in the show, Melanie, is that the word value kind of has two meanings, right? So usually in the context of where you're kind of describing it from is we think of what something is worth, right? How many, what's the value of my car, my home, my pair of pants? But if you look it up on Google, not many of us have dictionaries anymore, but if you look it up online, and the first meaning is the standards for which you're to live your life. How do we start moving towards thinking about that kind of value in the workplace and the work that we do? Because let's face it, companies need to make money, right, to stay alive. So how do we incorporate what I'll call the first meaning of value into the work we do?

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Well, I think that organizations have to first value the workers. They have to value their employees. And I think it's important to communicate with them and treat each person as someone that has meaning and value, not because of their title, but because that they exist. In some organizations, in some workplaces, only the person with the biggest title is actually heard. Whereas the person with the that might not who might be a supervisor, maybe manager, middle manager, doesn't get heard if the vice president speaks first. Same idea, different person. Right? So we have to value everyone. But I think that organizations have to also help their workers put boundaries around work. Stop messaging emailing your teams when the when the when they're off the clock after five o'clock, because you set a standard and a level of fear that if you do not reply, you are not responding, you're not responding, you're not engaging, you're not on point. There are a lot of maybe untrue messages that can be said by emailing late at night. You can schedule that email to show in the morning, you can schedule them. You don't have to put send at five o'clock. You don't have to text your colleagues in the evening on their personal cell phone, which is often what happens and expect them to answer. You can encourage your team members to use their PTO. You cannot have meetings on Fridays or stop having Friday meetings after nine afternoon so that people can clean up and then their email and feel like they can be free for the weekend to enjoy their families. There are messages that organizations can give to say that we prioritize you, the human being, in addition as a as a colleague and worker and employee, but in addition, understanding you have life outside of work.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

So why do you think, Melanie, you know, upper management, I'll say, for the context of kind of this question, are sending emails late at night? Is it like a, you know, um an effect of the scroll mitis that they're having, looking at their phone and saying, oh crap, I need to do something. Let me send an email. What are your thoughts? Why do, why are we getting emails late at night, early in the morning?

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Well, I believe it's the culture. I believe there's a culture that is created in organizations that says this is okay. But just like you can create a culture that says this is okay and this is the norm, you can turn that around and not do it. It's just a commitment to saying we value you enough not to do this to you, not to text and email all night.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

So walk us through then a workplace culture. What is a healthy workplace culture? And I guess as you describe that, talk us through what you see in unhealthy workplace cultures to kind of illustrate what a workplace culture should be.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yes, a healthy work-life culture is one that values the employee and as well as the work, that normalizes a culture that encourages boundaries around work. And a healthy culture tries to nurture the individuals, all individuals to speak and develop their voice. You know, Tony, sometimes the squeaky wheel, the person with the go the loudest, gets the attention, right? And often it's thought, wow, you know, Mike always speaks up. Mike always has something to say. Well, that doesn't make him right, that doesn't make him more hungry than uh than John, who might not have been given the time and the nurture to speak his voice. So I think a healthy culture nurtures everyone, and as strong leaders understand that there are people smarter than them in the room. You know, I there's generally there are a lot of people smarter than me. I want to nurture them. I want to pull out their gifts. And a healthy culture edifies and uplifts everyone and everyone's voice. I think a healthy uh organization also, if they have an employee assistance uh program that they encourage their team members to use it. Nationally, let uh 6% or less of all employees that have access to an employee assistance program actually use it.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

What's an example of that, Melanie, for the listeners that might not know what that is?

SPEAKER_01 12:51

An employee assistance program. It's a program that many uh employers offer that give their teammates access to mental health, to support, to counseling, financial counseling, marriage counseling, stress management techniques, and they're getting it free from their employers, but yet many are not using it.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Why do you think they're not using it? I know a lot of companies do offer it. You know, I've worked at companies that have it. Why do you think people, I guess like I want to kind of say with myself is that when I've before I started doing therapy, I'm like, oh, I've got all these thoughts in my head, I must be going insane. I don't need help, right? But then that was like, well, wait a minute. No, I do. I need to go to therapy. Why do you think people avoid these sort of like mental health strategies that could really help them?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Well, I think in our society, American society anyway, any uh idea, semblance or toward mental health or a need for care is seen as weakness.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

And no one wants to feel that they are weak. And you're less than. We don't, you know, if you have a heart attack, people are gonna be all around you. You get a cancer diagnosis, everybody's gonna be at your door. Tony, how can I help you? Connie, I care about you. Tony, what do you need? I mean, you know what? But if someone says, gee, I'm struggling with depression, I'm struggling with mental health, oh, something wrong with them. I don't know why they can't handle their business. You know what I'm saying? It's crazy. Is it's just crazy. And it's that it's there's not a positive association with uh associated with mental health and mental health care. I think that's one reason for lack of use. The other reason for lack of use in my experience has been that employees really don't believe that their employers won't, their boss won't know. And it is, they it is anonymous. And so I encourage organizations to stress to their employees that their use of the EA of the employee assistance program is anonymous and they do not know. That I believe is one of the biggest reasons it's not used.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Interesting. So I want to kind of like take a step back here and just kind of share with you. So you have your PhD, I love that in education. So I did my master's work in psychology, and there was a thing that I wanted to study called the shallowing hypothesis. It's gonna tie into your scrollomitis, and I want you to kind of run with it here. So Nicholas Carr back in 2011 wrote this book called The Shallows, and he basically stated that the more we use social media, it leads to an increase in uh narcissism, increase in depression, and a decrease in critical thinking, right? So now combine that with Malcolm Gladwell and his book Outliers, where you have 10,000 hours to master something. It's now 2026, Melanie. It's 15 years since Nicholas Carr proposed this. We are masters of narcissism, masters of depression, masters of a decrease in critical thinking. I guess what are your initial thoughts, can you know, relation to scrollamitis with that just kind of like, you know, hypothesis that you, if you will, from Nicholas Carr?

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I think Nicholas was on point, unfortunately.

unknown 15:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I mean, think about it. In our society, my parents grew up, my parent, my father was born in 1927, my mother 1935. My father was part of that greatest generation, right? Those men who went to war, it was all about family and country, right? So he didn't think about himself. And he and how he raised me was to care about others. I was taught to really diminish myself to serve others. I had to go help my neighbor. If there's a senior citizen down the street, go sweep this Miss Madison is sick, go clean her backyard, go and and she needs you to clean her house. And you better clean it like I want you to clean, like I taught you to clean it, right? And so we were, I was always given an expectation that I was to give back. Uh and I was to serve others. But now, and in school, I mean, we were there was more a sense of, when I was coming up, a sense of collegiality, camaraderie, community. I mean, think of, I think about how we came around the whole class, the graduation class, uh, not just for show, but what we could give and do and our church community, our our neighborhood communities, they were solid. But now everybody, somebody asked at has a brand. You know, now it's about well, what is your personal brand?

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

And then they ask you, is your brand your name? Do you, do I find you under Melanie or Dr. Melanie? I'm like, well, what other name would I go by? Right? So I think that he was right on point that we have with with with um social media and the internet, people are so self-consumed. It's their brand and their brand image. And everyone has a page and who is following them, and uh how how many likes do they have? I've seen people at work, workers, professionals, Tony, get into uh arguments because you stole my post. No. Degree people. So I believe that, and I will tell you another issue that I think uh might align with what you're saying with social media is when there were other prior to our you know, social media generations, everyone didn't have exposure to what they didn't have.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Now I'm gonna be real honest with you, Tony. I'm a baby boomer.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yes, I'm a boomerin.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

I'm boomerin, boomerang. And I didn't have exposure to what I didn't have. My neighborhood was my neighborhood, my community was my community. So I wasn't scrolling looking at what I didn't have. I was more content with what I had because that was what I knew. The challenge with social media is people are having exposure to things they don't have, like mansions and majoratis or whatever the biggest name car is. I don't know. They're having exposure. And so it sets up the discontent that you're talking about. It's it's uh it's birthing this uh disassociation and discontent with parents and family and where you are, and you can never be content. So because they're always in want and always in lack. And I totally agree with that author.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

So this is great, Melanie. So I think this is kind of leading into your sort of specialty here with burnout. Walk us through now kind of transitioning from this excessive social media use and now in the workplace. And how can this all what is burnout today, first off? What is burnout for you today? How do you define that?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

You never turn off.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Damn.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

You never turn off. You go from work and answering email and texts all day. And then if your employer is texting you in the evening, you're continually watching your phone to see if they are, and then at a certain time, you're waiting to see if your kids and your family, your wife, your mother are gonna call you, and then you're still thinking about what you have to do the next day. And are you working a second job? And do you need and you're benchmarking yourself across um social media? So it's never turning off. It's and do I need to network? Do I need to make some more friends? Do I need to go to that happy hour? So people never turn off. And because they never turn off and rest, they burn out. They burn out physically, either by you know losing weight, which is not as common as the weight gain that comes with the elevated cortisol levels, you know, when people are continually under stress and they burn out physically, they burn out emotionally, uh, and they are able to engage. It just takes a toll on their lives.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

What are some symptoms, Melanie, of burnout? Like I know you can see the weight loss, the weight gain. You know, what is some signs that people might be burning out?

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Well, in the workplace, they might find, see themselves being coming more perfectionist, having a more perfectionist attitude, micromanaging, uh, not trusting anyone. They might be sharper in their emails, uh, they might have less tolerance for other people's mistakes. They show less grace. They may uh physically have neck pains, shoulder pains. They might wake up in the morning with sore draws from clenched teeth. They might find themselves constipated, bloating, having bloating. Um, I did say not sleeping well. So there are a lot of physiological, uh physical factors. They might have less time and patience for their own kids. And this is because it can run off and and and affect your personal relationships. If there's if they're suffering, it could be. Partly that you're burning out.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

So let's face it, there's a lot of stress in our life, right? So I guess where's the tipping point when stress becomes bad and turns to burnout?

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Well, everyone is different, but that's why I believe you have to calibrate. You have to be willing to pause and to calibrate. And I know that there's a lot out there about we'll just breathe. Well, I do believe that breathing can help you reset, right, your stress. But you also have to be willing to uh to take an actionable step of just stopping, taking the day off, taking a few days off for PTO, taking the weekend off, and just centering yourself and becoming attuned to how you feel and how you feel right now, and what do you want to be like? I think you also have to assess your situation. Everyone's situation is different, and what I can tolerate uh as a boomer with not much to care about. But no, you know, I I don't have to do much of anything that I don't want to do, right? That's a different, a different level than someone uh who's beginning their career or is emerging in their career. You have to center on that, on assessing your own lens and where you are, and you have to be willing to respond to the truth about where you are.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

So how do we do that, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

How do we do that? That's tough. That's difficult to do. It is tough. That's the work.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

It's the work. But look, I know that you I've seen people who are on their way to med school, who are in med school, doing their residency, and they finally acknowledge I don't like this. This is not how I want to spend my life. And so after four years of undergrad, four years of med school, and now they're in their first, second year of residency, turn away from the career of medicine. That takes courage. But I believe everyone has to come to a point of being courageous to save their own lives.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

So it seems like there's a bit of a fine line there, right? Because you could say the work is stressful and you need to do extra effort to get across the finish line, but sometimes it's not your path. Walk us through how we decide whether we need to stick it through or change path, as you're saying, kind of pivot.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Well, I believe that that's a complicated question, but I'm going to do my best. Because how you make that move depends on where your life is. If you have enough savings and you and your family, significant other, can have a conversation about your pivot so that you ease into it, that's one thing. I never uh suggest anyone act abruptly. So sometimes the pivot has to take uh is better, you have to take time to pivot so that you don't bring bring havoc and more stress, so that you um are not reacting, but you are intentional in your actions to change your life. Sometimes being uh overcoming burnout just means you delegate and give everyone on your team a chance to do their best and do their job. Some people take everything on themselves. They take all the ownership and then they feel burned out, but you could have delegated that. So I think that there is complicated and that people have to look at themselves and decide: is it my leadership function that's amiss here? And I need to lead differently so that I'm not burned out, or is this not the right path for me? And do I need a plan with um my my family, people that I care about to pivot out over the long run, over the short short run?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

So you have a saying, Melanie, that I love, and you say self-care is the new health care.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Why do you say that?

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Oh, for so many reasons. Because if you don't take care of yourself, and and maybe you're 30-something, I'm imagining.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yep, 38, you guessed. 38.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

You're 38. And I often say the 30 year olds, because I'm I'm 60 plus, I'm 67, quite honest. And I say to you that what you do now and how you care for yourself will impact how you live at my age. It's not just self-care is about quality of life. You don't want to have worked 30 more years in your career, uh, Tony, and then get to the point where maybe you want to retire and you can't enjoy it anyway because of a lot of health complications. And also you don't want your resources spent like that. You don't want to spend your money on pills and copays. You want to travel. Not that you should wait 30 more years to do any of that. But self-care is health care, and you're looking long-term at the quality of your life.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

So walk us through, Melanie, I guess, some like, you know, techniques, some strategies when you say self-care. What are some things that listeners can do for their own self-care?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

They can be intentional and be hard-nosed about their calendar. Number one, I'm going to come on time and at five o'clock, I'm done. I'm not going to email, I'm not going to respond, I'm going to change the culture of my team. And then determine when you are off, what are you going to do to eat well, to exercise? What are you doing to build your life aside from the title that you have at work? What are you known for? What do you want to be known for? Do you want to be known for uh helping, uh having so many volunteer hours in your community? How many gallons of blood? I've given a lot of blood, Tony. How many blood do you want to give in your lifetime? I'm a pro. Do you want to be known for helping your children? What do you want your children, if you have them, to know you for? Do you want them to say, well, mom or dad was never around, or they came to every game? What is the legacy? And be intentional about that legacy. One for your family, one also for yourself. What do you want to learn? How do you want to grow?

SPEAKER_00 28:43

How do you recommend we work through this exercise? I wanted you to get kind of like into the technical details here. What do you recommend for the listeners to kind of do this?

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Well, they have to stop everything and be willing to scan their body. Scan their life. You have to stop and scan. Then you have to tell yourself the truth. My family is a mess, my internal being is a mess, I feel anxious. Stop and tell yourself the truth. I'm kind of in need of help. Then you have to oh, own the fact that you need to change and then get the help. And then you have to pee prioritize the change. Look, we didn't get messed up overnight. It's taking time. Whatever space we're in, it arrived, we arrived here over time. So it's going to take some time to change. So you have to prioritize it, and then I be intentional about it, putting it on your calendar, setting boundaries around your change, and then you have to be willing to transform. And in some cases, we might have secondary gains from our bad habits. For example, you know, well, Tony, he we can always count on him to stay late. We know if nobody's gonna get it done, Tony's gonna get it done. So that might be secondary gain that you get, you're the willing to let that go.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

That's awesome, Melanie. So this is the work sucks, but I like it podcast. What sucks about your work today, and what are you doing to make it not suck?

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Well, nothing sucks about my work because I love what I do. And if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. And that is the hope that I have for everyone. I don't believe you have to be burned out. I think it's a choice of behavior, and I do believe you can find something that you love. And if you don't love your job, then do your job and do it well and go find and let it pay and fund what you love. It your job is not the end-all be-all.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

So one thing I love that statement, Melanie, I've heard it before from other guests on the show. When you love your job, you never have to work another day in your life. And I believe it was Garrett Wood. Um, he's uh, I believe a therapist as well. And he um he says the problem with that is that you know you love it so much that you're always working. What's the sort of like distinction that you're making here that you love your job so you're not burning out?

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Well, I have so many other things in my life. I cannot give my job that much of me because I have my service organizations, the boards that I serve on, I have my family relationships, my friendships that I nurture. So I don't have time. My life is too broad to give it all to my job.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

So, Melanie, if listeners of the show want to learn more about themselves and learn more about what you do, where's a good place for them to land?

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Dr. Melanie Gray.com. That's Melanie M-E-L-A-N-I-E-G-R-A-Y. Dr. Melanie Gray.com.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Awesome. Well, Dr. Melanie Gray, thank you so much for being on the show today.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Melanie leaves us with a powerful reminder. You work to live, you don't live to work. Whether it's setting boundaries, putting down the phone, using your PTO, or simply being honest about where you are in life, burnout recovery starts with paying attention. The goal isn't just career success, it's building a life that's bigger than your job title. As always, success is not a matter of good luck, it's good skills. The skill as she indicated starts with how you talk about work. Yeah, we can't go back to when we were growing up and change how our parents asked us who we wanted to be in life, but we can start to recognize the work that we do today, how we're showing up, and who we're becoming. Pay attention to how you talk about work. Is it just what you do? What other ways can you describe who you are becoming to yourself and others? Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other, and remember work sucks, but you might just learn to like it.